Wondering why some people choose not to be vegan? Below are my reasons for making meat a part of my healthy living journey and a part of my life on a homestead.
But I want to start by saying: I don’t hate vegans and this is not about why vegans are wrong.
I believe everyone needs to make his or her own choices in life and one way of eating may not work for everyone.
The point of this post is to give arguments against veganism to show the other side and explain why I choose not to be vegan.
Arguments Against Veganism: It’s Not (Necessarily) Healthier
Some people believe veganism is healthier. Studies show people who eat animal products are at higher risk for many diseases.
Vegetables Matter!
Firstly, I believe that a vegan diet can make some people healthier. For example, if they go from eating conventional bacon for breakfast to eating veggies, fruit, nuts, and seeds instead.
But I don’t believe animal products, in general, are the reason many people have discovered health benefits from a vegan diet.
A vegan diet is naturally higher in veggies and fruits, which would be a great thing for someone who never ate them before.
Studies are Not Perfect
Also, I haven’t found any studies directly comparing a vegan diet to a whole food meat-eating diet.
So, I would guess that the studies that point to vegans being healthier than meat-eaters were performed with vegans vs. people eating conventional animal products and possibly a standard American diet.
I don’t think this is a fair comparison. In my experience, eating small amounts of animal products along with lots of vegetables has only improved my health.
Vegans Are Already Health Conscious
Many people who choose vegan or vegetarianism are health conscious. That means they are likely doing other things in their lives to improve their health like not smoke or drink in excess.
They are also more likely to eat more vegetables and stay away from sugar.
If the meat-eating group in the study were a group of health-conscious, nonsmoking people too and if they chose only organic, grass-fed animal products, I would highly doubt there would be any correlation between veganism and better health.
Conventional Animal Products Aren’t Healthy
We can agree on one thing though — conventional animal products are not healthy and do cause health problems.
Pastured animal products, on the other hand, are very healthy when eaten in moderation and with lots of vegetables. Grass-fed beef is ½ to 1/3 as fatty as grain fed beef.
Additionally, grass-fed beef provides two to six times as much healthy omega 3 fatty acids as conventional beef. Omega 3’s are an essential part of a healthy lifestyle, including lowering the risk of heart disease by as much as 50%!
Eggs from pastured chickens can contain as much as 20 times the amount of omega 3’s as conventional eggs. Source
Yes, you can supplement to make up for the lack of omega 3’s but I prefer to get as much of my nutrition from food before resorting to supplements. Nutrients from food are almost always easier for the body to absorb and assimilate.
Say No To Soy
What is very concerning to me about a vegan diet is the huge amount of processed soy products that many vegans rely on for protein. Soy is incredibly unhealthy.
Soy can cause infertility, malabsorption of nutrients, and digestive and gut problems among other things. Eating soy increases your body’s need for vitamins and nutrients including vitamin B12, something non-meat eaters are often deficient in.
Also, there are other food products out there that are vegan but definitely NOT healthy. Here’s a list of just a few of the junk food that is vegan.
Therefore, vegan is not synonymous with healthy. Neither is non-vegan for that matter. The important thing is to eat a varied diet of real food that includes lots of vegetables for the best health benefits.
Arguments Against Veganism: It’s Not (Necessarily) More Ethical
Some people believe it’s wrong to eat animals or animal products. It’s wrong that any animal should suffer to feed me. It’s wrong that an animals life is not it’s own.
There is a Way to Be an Ethical Meat Consumer
I do agree that it’s not ethical to eat conventional animal products. But I also believe that we can be ethical meat, egg, and dairy consumers.
We need to remember though, that many living creatures die every day for the production of grain or vegetables. Plowing kills moles, mice, snakes, lizards, etc. and turning any piece of land into cropland destroys the home and food supply of many other animals.
Not to mention the animal and human lives that are affected by chemical fertilizers and pesticides that threaten biodiversity. The point is, again, to avoid conventional food in favor of ethically grown and raised food.
We also have to consider how a vegan diet can affect people in other parts of the world. For example, some people in Bolivia can’t afford quinoa anymore, their traditional staple food, because it’s become so popular in the U.S. (source)
What my goals are for my food is to grow or raise as much of it as I can myself. That way I can be sure that animals are raised and slaughtered as ethically as possible.
Who Decides What an Animal Thinks or Feels?
I believe ethically raised animals’ lives are their own. My chickens are fed and kept safe in our yard. If it weren’t for our chicken coop and run most of them would be dead.
That is just the nature of an animal so low on the food chain. Their lives are fast. They turn into food for foxes and other predators. I believe they are happy.
As for their eggs, many animals take eggs from birds. If we weren’t taking them then someone else would (mice? raccoons?).
Nature is perfect and works on such an intricate level that most of us are totally unaware of the interworking of plants, animals, and earth in an ecosystem.
Yes, hens are bred to lay more eggs and for other attributes, but I don’t think that changes the fact that bird eggs have always been food for other animals.
Arguments Against Veganism: It’s Not (Necessarily) More Sustainable
Some people believe it’s more sustainable. It takes 15 lbs of grain to grow 1 lb of beef. Therefore, Land is better used to grow grains directly for humans.
Animals Can Be Part of a Sustainable Farm or Homestead
Again, I believe we can be ethical animal product consumers. That means supporting renewable agriculture, employing permaculture, and making the best choices we can for our homesteads.
Firstly, I don’t recommend eating grain fed beef. Grain fed cattle often need antibiotics just to survive their unnatural diet. Grain feeding also increases bad fat content and decreases the good. Source
The grains that are grown to feed cattle are largely GMO corn and soy, which are grown in an unsustainable way. Therefore, it doesn’t really matter if the grains go to humans or animals, the practice is unsustainable already. As Dawn Gifford at Small Footprint Family writes:
“But here’s where the vegetarian argument ends: Whether you feed the corn to livestock or people doesn’t matter. A conventionally farmed corn or soybean field is a major source of greenhouse gases, air and water pollution either way. But a permanent pasture is a biodiverse, ever-cycling pump that continuously pushes carbon back into the soil where it increases fertility and builds topsoil.” Read more
Choosing a vegetarian or vegan diet over a diet full of conventional meat, dairy and eggs may be more sustainable. But a diet made up of sustainably raised animal products and sustainably grown veggies and fruits is just as sustainable (or more so!).
My Dietary Choice (Bonus Reason!)
When I first wrote this post I was eating meat and eggs but not dairy. I was also eating gluten-free. We had chickens that were fed organic feed and let out to forage as often as possible.
I bought grass-fed beef or organic pastured chicken whenever possible. I was also incorporating many real food vegetarian and vegan dishes into our diet.
Now, I am eating an AIP diet and my family leans toward paleo. The reason is that grains and legumes are not healthy, certainly not in the amount many Americans eat them.
Both grains and legumes contain anti-nutrients that make getting nutrients out of these foods difficult. This is a topic that would require an entire post to explain, so if you’re interested in learning more, start here.
Additionally, there are some essential nutrients that are difficult or impossible to get without animal products.
Additionally, all healing diets I know of include high-quality meat. This makes me think that not only is eating meat ok, but it’s also necessary for optimal health. If we were designed to eat meat (we are) there must be a way to do it “right”.
And that’s what I’m trying to do. My goal is to grow and raise as much of my own food as possible so I can be intricately involved in making it as ethical and sustainable as possible.
How Can You Care for an Animal and Then Kill And Eat It?
This is a big question homesteading meat-eaters like myself get from vegans. But the first thing that pops into my head is: How can you not?
I could let someone else do all of the raising and butchering for me (as many people do) and pretend like it’s not happening, but I don’t feel like that’s right.
I feel like if I’m going to eat meat, I need to be okay with how I get that meat. I’m not saying I have to enjoy it (and honestly no one does) but I have to be okay with it.
I’m really not okay with the way animals are treated in feed-lot, conventional farming. I am okay with the way animals are treated on many small farms and homesteads.
So why would I buy meat from a source that treats their animals badly so that I don’t have to eat the meat I raise humanely?
It’s not easy. I don’t know anyone who takes killing an animal lightly. It’s serious and it is sad. But there is also so much gratitude toward the animal and there is so much more connection to the cycles of life.
If you never want to kill an animal, that’s fine! Be a vegan or vegetarian if you want to be. For me, my decision is different. I am going to eat meat, and I want the best quality and most humanely raised meat I can find.
That means potentially raising it myself. And that also means the need to care for an animal that I know will one day be on my plate.
Caring for/loving an animal and butchering an animal for food are not mutually exclusive as far as I’m concerned.
Bottom Line
I admire anyone who makes choices in their life to try and be as ethical and sustainable as possible. For some people that means avoiding animal products. For me, it’s getting as close to my food as I can.
Now It’s Your Turn
Do you eat animal products? Why or why not?
Well said! I, too, am a “meat eater” but I would never buy “conventionally” raised meat, eggs, or dairy. In fact, I think supporting small farmers who treat animals well actually benefits *all* animals. The more farmers who see grass-fed beef being bought, the more will choose to go that route!
Very true. Thanks for the comment :)
not buying any meat would help the animals even more, and even grass-fed cows are slaughtered and have their babys riped from them usually 48 hours after birth, then the mother will usually be is a state of deep sorrow for weeks while the baby is killed to make veal. no one with that imformation should be able to continue buying meat. there is no such thing as humane killing, what if I came up to you and killed you, oh dont worry, it would be humane, and you have lived a nice life so far right?
The only way to be truly humane in how you harvest food is to raise your own. Relying on mass produced products of ANY kind is problematic. Dear “Someone who cares about animals”, if you are purchasing food rather than harvesting it yourself, then you are contributing to the problem. If you think you’re not then you’re in denial.
Raising them yourself makes little difference when it comes down to the simple fact that the animal would almost always prefer to live, and you’re taking that away from them (whether they understand this or not) out of desire, not the necessity of a third-world farmer or the necessity+ignorance of a wild animal. Vege/veganism isn’t perfect either – but it is the biggest step in the right direction that a lot of people in developed countries are able to take while keeping their health and lifestyle.
So you’re saying that it’s the same to kill a non-human or a human?
Do you realise that killing farm animals doesn’t affect them negatively nor positively? They don’t have plans for their future, that’s why people say that they “live in the moment”, even though they have a perception of a few seconds of the future, they aren’t waiting for the next day. What farm animals care about is being happy and they wouldn’t even exist in the first place if not bred for consumption.
Of course there’s no way to ethically kill a being that doesn’t want to die, like sapient beings, but this is not the case, no farm animal has the mental capacity to not want to die. However it’s clear that they want to avoid pain -consciously, when they get anxious at the slaughterhouse it’s because they are in an unfamiliar place with different odors, not because they know that they will die, they simply don’t understand death and don’t have a concept of “existence”. You can see the clear differences between human -or sapient species in general- and farm animal consciousness.
Humane killing exists, and it’s a way of killing that doesn’t involve pain in the case of sentient beings, as for plants the fact that they feel pain doesn’t matter because they aren’t conscious and therefore don’t care about their own suffering, so they can be killed humanely even if pain is inflicted.
Grass-fed cows stay with their calves in my country, I see them everytime I travel to other cities and there’s plenty of farmland, veal are raised outside but it’s because of the high welfare standards that my country has for farming, I don’t know how regulations work in the US or other countries.
Dairy cows on the other hand are separated from their calves to don’t waste milk. I’m not sure if I stand for or against it because unlike humans or elephants who miss their babies their entire life, cows will miss their calves for about a day, and maybe milk is worth it.
PD: I don’t usually consume meat, I’m flexitarian, and only buy eggs and milk from local farms (the chickens are raised free-range and the mother cows stay outside with their calves). I don’t contribute to factory farming either, only regenerative agriculture and farming.
My thoughts on this are that it is not the same for a human to kill a human vs a human to kill a non human. I’m not exactly sure how this got brought up, but if it was a do or die situation, it could be justified to pick killing a non human over a human. However when it comes to eating in today’s circumstances, many view it as enjoyment vs life because if we do not need to eat meat and the main reason we do is for pleasure, then it’s not for survival. There’s many things we do for pleasure and while everyone deserves pleasure, I don’t think we necessarily deserve it at the expense of another’s life plus often their lives aren’t that good. You mentioned you try to buy more ethically raised animals which is great, however often and unfortunately those labels mean very little. For instance, free range chickens though not caged, can still be housed up to 16,000 birds per barn I believe. They do get access to outdoors I think but many do not make it due to the number of birds and the disruption of the pecking order because there would never be that many birds in a pecking order and it causes chaos. Grass fed beef is probably the most ethically raised and healthiest, however of course, if it’s not one issue it’s another. Grass fed beef is the most environmentally problematic because they require more space and live longer so there’s more methane. That’s why many don’t find animal welfare enough, because we simply do not have the means to provide it on large scale. If we did, we would because no one wants to buy factory farmed products. I agree with your point that it’s dairy that calves get taken away from their mothers not grass fed beef, I think that was an error on the person who said that’s part. What I don’t quite follow is your stance on farmed animals not being harmed negatively by being killed. How do you know that they don’t have plans for the future? You’re right in that they would not exist if hadn’t been bred in the first place. But that seems to follow the line of thinking we give them life, they give us bacon. But for many, they’d prob rather not exist at all then be subjected to a life of torment. You know it’s bad when if you had to pick male or female in the egg industry, I’d pick male because they die right away because they don’t lay eggs. It tells you something about the living conditions if you’d rather be male to die right away then live out the life. Of course that’s at factory farms, but in the US supposedly 99% of farmed animals are in factory farms. You talk about farmed animals not having the mental capacity to not want to die, but how do you know they do not have the mental capacity to not want to die, you are not them. They aren’t completely dumb you know. Pigs are the smartest domestic animal even considered smarter than dogs. Not only do they pass the mirror test, some were even taught to use a joystick to play a simple video game. I think the meaning of the phrase though, is that dying includes suffering right? And if they have the ability to suffer, which they do, then there’s no ethical way to cause suffering to someone who does not want to suffer. That includes death. I used to believe in humane killing, however, I think I understand now that all there can be is ways of killing that are more humane than others but there cannot be any kind of killing that is objectively humane. Humane is kind and compassionate and you cannot kindly kill someone who does not need to die. There are kinder ways of killing them than others but none is objectively kind, only in comparison can some ways be ranked kinder. If slaughter houses were humane, would you want to die in that manner? If your pet had to die because of medical reasons or something, would you take them to a slaughterhouse? Especially with pigs, since they pass the mirror test, something dogs do not even pass (tho I’m sure their world is more smell based then sight), it is strong evidence that they are conscious and self aware. This is why many pigs go insane at factory farms because they don’t have any enrichment and even at higher welfare farms the enrichment given is not enough. I don’t know why we’re so quick to discount consciousness because at the end of the day, we aren’t experiencing what they are and why would we assume something that’s detrimental if our assumption is wrong because the actions we make off of that assumption are irreversible. What about human babies? We could assume they do not understand death therefore they can’t not want to die, so if they happen to unfortunately die, is that humane? The thing is, they can still suffer and dying is suffering and if they do not want to suffer, then they do not want to die whether they have the same understanding of death as we do. Even if death was totally painless, it could still be seen as unethical because we are taking away their ability to feel. Even if they do not have future plans, which I’m sure some at least have an idea of basic time like day and night, I don’t think having future plans is relevant to justify killing them. Maybe the idea was that oh, you’re not doing anything important later? Wanna be dinner? I dunno. But still, farmed animals can’t be that dumb. They all have the capacity to be pretty smart dogs are around their same intelligence anyway.
I agree with you 100% Someone Who Actually Cares About Animals. This post is a LOT of excuses to make the writer (and readers) feel better about their unnecessary choices (purely to satisfy their tastebuds). “Humane” meat. Please. No animal (including human animals) wants to be “humanely slaughtered”. And soy is HEALTHY!!!! And anyone who believes otherwise is looking at very outdated science (or Googling the answer they WANT to hear…easy to do). How very sad for the animals.
Huge difference in animal life and human life.
Humans are superior to animals
it doesn’t benefit the animal who was slaughtered. Small farms = animal grows to depend and love its caretaker and then he is loaded up to slaughter = betrayal.
That’s not betrayal, the animal doesn’t have a concept of it.
The person isn’t betraying the animal either, it was planned that the animal was going to be raised for consumption.
It is a betrayal, the animal never agreed to this arrangement. I also do not subscribe to your argument that the animal doesn’t understand the concept of betrayal as it doesn’t matter. the animal understands fear, pain, loneliness, and enjoys the time it spends with its fellow animals. It also obviously grows attached to the owner and trusts them, and it is the ultimate betrayal for the animal to be forcibly removed and slaughtered as its life is being distinguished and it experiences fear and pain even for a short while. It’s sick and twisted, and no matter what excuses you give to try and morally justify your actions, deep down I’m sure you know it’s not right.
Here is something to ponder: Why do you believe that animals think and feel the things you mentioned here?
In response to your first reason for not being vegan: There have been several studies comparing vegetarian diets to a whole foods (Mediterranean type) diet and the vegetarian diet has always fared better. The Blue Zones, where people live the longest and healthiest, all follow a largely plant-based diet. We have a blue zone right in the US and that is in Loma Linda, California which has the highest concentration of Seventh Day Adventists. The USDA has also come out with their new 2015 guidelines which call for a reduction of meat consumption and an increase in plant-based foods–because Americans are consuming too much animal products. The saturated fats and cholesterol found in animal products are responsible for heart disease being the leading killer in the US.! Populations that are the healthiest are not necessarily vegetarian, but do consume much lower amounts of animal products than the US where meat is always the main course. Also, your facts about soy are flat out incorrect. Asians have been consuming diets high in soy products for hundreds of years and they remain far healthier than typical western diets. All of the recent vilification of soy is nothing more than a myth.
In response to the second: I see no morally valid reason to kill an animal (not an insect) for no real reason other than for greed or desire. When food is plentiful there is no reason to have to kill anything intentionally. Yes, small animals and insects may be killed during certain farming practices because we do need to eat, but this should not justify raising and slaughtering an animal when there are plenty of other food sources available. Also, you fail to realize that all domesticated chickens ( the ones living in your yard) have been genetically manipulated to grow larger, faster, and overproduce. Chickens in the wild fly and remain in wooded areas to escape predators. No animal in their non-domesticated state relies on humans for survival.. this is something we have created. Also, chickens in the wild produce just 10-15 eggs per year and during mating seasons only compared to the hundreds produced continually by domesticated chickens. There is nothing natural about this process and the ideal things to do would be the feed the eggs back to the hens so that they may replenish some of the nutrients lost by this constant, unnatural reproduction of eggs.
Your third: Land is being cleared constantly for cattle to feed the American meat addiction. There is nothing remotely natural about eating giant portions of meat three times a day, along with copious amounts of other animal products. And there is no denying the reality that animals take up much more space than plants, require a lot more resources, and produce a lot more waste. There would be no fields of corn and soy without meat production because they exist only to feed the factory farm industries. Even the UN has said that many of our current environmental problems are related to the animal farming industry. Yes, backyard farming is a better alternative to large scale production.. but either way that means cutting down meat consumption. The problems we face now is that there is just not enough land to meet the western demand for meat. Factory farms were the result of this. Even people like Bill Gates, who is not a vegetarian himself, realizes this is not sustainable on any level and has invested billions in start-up companies (like Hampton Creek) who are producing plant-based alternatives to animal products.
Im so glad that you wrote this response and thank you for the information more people need to read these facts and i hope they do
Soooo … insects aren’t animals? That’s new to me.
I believe this person meant that they see no reason to kill an animal, not even an insect.
Your brain and cells need cholesterol. It is used in so many important functions in the body. Saturated fat is actually good. You know what is bad? Polyunsaturated fats from plant oils and Highlyunstarated fats from fish oil. These react with iron and for Lipofuscin. We have acid rain now days and iron fortified food. Acid rain liberates large amounts of iron and aluminum that goes into our drinking water and into food. Also, are you eating plants that are grown with NPK fertilizer? Well guess what, those fertilizers, even if organic, cause calcification in the body. Are you getting large amounts of magnesium bicarbonate? Probably not. So most vegan and vegetarian diets are causing calcification and lipofuscin.
Thank you for that answer. I do not understand how anyone can think that taking the life of another is justifiable. “Farm” animals are not property, they are individuals with a soul, a heart, a mind and the ability to love and think. They are far better creatures than we are. We are monsters to anything that we think tastes good. Please go vegan.
I mean, I would never want to do that to an animal. But humans were wired to eat meat. Our ancestors did it to survive, which is probably why our bodies need protein. As a Christian, I know that slaughtering animals is wrong, but as a human? God made us in a very special way. He made us want to eat meat, and I’m not complaining. I’m not saying I’m obsessed with meat, I just think that it would be too difficult to transition into veganism. Also, isn’t fish supposed to be really good for you? I want to know your opinion. (I feel guilty about being a meat-eater now, but I just really love meet)
Our ancestors did eat meat to survive but we do not need meat to survive anymore we can even thrive without eating meat. Protein does not equal meat there are plenty of sources to get protein. If vegan diet was inherently unhealthy, then there would not be vegan athletes or olympians. Maybe god made us designed to eat meat, but at least not the kinds of meat products we so often eat like fast food, fried chicken, hot dogs, pizza, etc. god also probably didn’t intend for us to factory farm to get meat and accelerate climate change to the degree we are doing. I understand the need to look to our past to reflect on issues like these, but we should also be looking at the circumstances we are in now and the circumstances we could be in in the future. Our ancestors also did many things that are not acceptable today. Actually when society was changing those were probably the same reasons we wanted to resist changing. We have had slavery all the way back to Bible times and since it had existed forever, it must be natural. Fish can be healthy, however you should research on overfishing problems. Some scientists estimate that there could be fish less oceans by 2048. I don’t know whether this will happen, but the fact that some predict this at all, reflects that there is a big overfishing issue, plus you gotta be mindful of all the bycatch that happens when we fish for fish we want to eat, like others like dolphins and sea turtles and other marine animals are harmed. I totally understand loving the way meat tastes (btw it means that taste is a main reason to eat meat meaning enjoyment so it’s not that we’re doing it for survival but that we’re doing it for enjoyment) and no one goes vegan because they stop liking how meat tastes. They do it because they realize the major injustices that are systemic in our animal agriculture system. The good news is, that we don’t really have to sacrifice taste to be vegan, because there are many vegan options of tasty traditionally made from animal product foods that taste just as good. I suggest doing some more research yourself though so you can form your ideas on the topic.
We cannot live without meat. If vegans can do it, it’s thanks to supplements on their diet.
Sorry I just remembered. Additionally with the problem of plastic in the ocean, the fish we eat have plastic in them which isn’t really harmful to us but is still kind of sad and disgusting to think about.
Animals kill other animals, its the circle of life, its nature. Most vegans seem to forget that. Also, we are made to consume meat, our bodies process it faster although we are onmivourus. Death is part of life. Eating another animals is part of nature (not the same as cannibalism). They do have a soul, a heart, and mind? A cockroach? Its a better creature than we are? People this days have seen too much disney and give animals personality traits of humans, they humanize them. A chicken doesnt have the same cognitive abilities a human has, or an elephant has. Its not the same to eat chicken than a monkey. Killing other animals and eat them is natural, what is unatural is causing unnecesary pain or mistreatment of the animal before killing it.
Good answer.
The second response is based on your personal morality, but it’s not an universal way of thinking, I don’t believe it’s wrong to kill insects even if it’s done for the mere purpose of converting the being into an ornament.
It’s interesting hearing a different view on veganism that was very respectful to both sides. Thank you for doing that. But even though your points are valid, I still feel that contributing to a industry as cruel as the meat and fish industry is morally irresponsible. I respect your choice to still eat meat, but you did not convince me to do the same. Lead a nice life!
Thank you :)
I have been vegan, so many times. OMG, I walk around hungry. I love rice and beans, but sometimes I just crave a good old fashioned hamburger. I thought about being strictly Vegetarian, however, the problem, I’m allergic to a lot of Vegetables, so really.. It just leaves me in a stressful dilemma, and one that takes too much of my time… I really don’t know what to do anymore. Help
That is tricky. I would focus on high quality pastured meats (which are usually more humanely raised). Often food allergies are related to gut health so I’d look into that too.
The allergy to certain vegetables could be due to an unbalanced intestinal flora. Also be sure you are not consuming GMO vegetables.Look to getting a body detox and rebalancing your gut. You might just be surprised.
i think it would be a good idea to get a blood test. as far as I know craving can be from lacking some nutrients – your body remembers the last time you ate them and tells you to eat that food.
If you can identify which nutrients you are lacking (because walking around hungry and craving foods you don’t really want to eat should not be your normal state) you may find ways to get these nutrients in a way that aligns with your ethical ideals?
I tried a vegan diet twice with bad results. I didn’t feel good and lacked energy. I studied how to become a vegan and did more research for my second attempt. My blood type is A-. I’m lean with a little tone and burn a lot of calories on the weekends riding a bike or hiking.
I am vegan and i eat tons of vegan junk food, cookies, brownies, candy, chips, oreos, the list goes on and on. I constantly am seeing friends get sick, but I only get sick once a year tops. I have tons of energy and feel great, sure i’m not at my best after going to menchies and filling myself up with sorbet and vegan candy, but that goes for everyone.
Gotta watch all that junk food or else you will eventually become sick like the person on a standard american diet.
So essentially, what I read is that the only way to eat meat ethically, sustainably, and healthily is be a small scale farmer who produces it all themselves.
I understand the argument. And I respect it.
It’s great as a personal choice but it is absolutely impossible for EVERYONE to do, unless the entire planet was turned into pasture. everyone would have to leave the cities for the country side
So the only way for “humanity” to obtained the same level of ethics health and environmental sustainability still is to not eat animal products and to focus on plant production.
I think that’s the main problem with a pro meat argument in our day, it is essentially a very self centered position and doesn’t look at us as a species.
Respectfully Miles, there is no way to ethically imprison, exploit, rape, torture, and slaughter a sentient being. We are going to look back on the horrors we have visited upon innocent, non-human animals the way we now look back on other genocides/horrors we created and condoned. We have gone from selfishness to willful ignorance.
I am vegan and i eat tons of vegan junk food, cookies, brownies, candy, chips, oreos, the list goes on and on. I constantly am seeing friends get sick, but I only get sick once a year tops. I have tons of energy and feel great, sure i’m not at my best after going to menchies and filling myself up with sorbet and vegan candy, but that goes for everyone.
I’m not vegan, but why are you ever on this website if you’re vegan?
I’m vegan and I’m here because I am constantly looking to learn and grow (which is, in part, how I became vegan). I can’t learn as well if I’m just taking in info I already know and listening to folks with whom I already agree. I’m here because I’m still looking for a valid argument against veganism. I’ve yet to find that argument. As a result, I feel responsible to be a voice for all the innocent, voiceless victims of exploitation, imprisonment, torture and slaughter.
I’m glad this argument has become clear for me. Animals are ‘ones’, not ‘things’. It is wrong to kill someone who is not trying to kill you and does not want to die. Animal-eating is a hard habit to break. We have been brainwashed to think eating dead animals is somehow necessary (or, astonishingly, even good for us). That said, enabling, condoning (and even arguing for) the imprisonment, torture, exploitation and slaughter of thinking, feeling beings in this country, in 2020, is abhorrent and horrifying. As we have evolved and grown, most of us have come to see that racism, sexism and other forms of bigotry can only exist in the most ignorant, apathetic and non-empathetic among us. Speciesism is just another unacceptable ‘ism’ that too many folks have yet to identify, understand and take seriously. Thinking, feeling humans need to advocate for, protect, and love the more vulnerable among us – not eat them. Using and killing others is wrong. Today, there is no valid argument for eating animals. If you won’t eat Rover (please don’t), don’t eat others.
TL:DR – why focus on the end of a life? We can likely agree that 1. humans and animals are not the same 2. certain animals have a purpose within the food system we humans rely on and 3. Taking care of the animals in our charge is both a benefit and a moral duty – presenting a continuous need for analysis and improvement to meet human needs and animals needs as best as possible.
Mindy has raised some great points here. I think it is easy to forget that most of these animals would not be alive if they were not bred and, as you pointed out, they would be killed by other animals. I also think the role animals play in producing fertilizer is often overlooked when vegans promote farming only. Animals are needed if you want to farm land. They used to work, though we have long replaced them with machines on most farms because we are complex problem solvers, but we still need them. Should we breed them, raise them, feed them protect them and then just bury them at the expiration of their life by some other cause? Is eating them actually wrong? Is ending their life actually wrong? You cannot necessarily compare them to humans, as our flesh and milk are not food for any other creature (Microorganisms aside.) We also possess the ability to build these complex systems and tools, which animals even the most clever in their environment (some do amazing things) do not do the kind of problem-solving and planning that we do. We are not like the animals and they are not like us.
In addition, each animal has a specific set of food sources and types, be they plant or animal based. What is the natural food of a human? There is no simple answer to that question, but it strikes me as odd to recognize that half the animal kingdom naturally hunts and consumes other animals life and then to say humans are wrong to eat animals on account of the animals. (Plus plants are also living organisms. That is life. If you cannot choose to end an animals life before it dies of some other cause, then how can you choose to harvest a plant or eat its grain or seeds? There is a moral theory underpinning the vegan perspective that appears to break down under scrutiny. You can say “we can survive on eating less life forms” or even “we can survive on not eating animals”, and surely “certain practices are found in the meat and dairy industry (appear) cruel “, but trying to establish that taking the life of another living organism for food is wrong on planet Earth is inherently problematic. We can all strive to promote more humane practices and call out unnecessary cruelty, but claiming anyone can live a life that doesn’t trade on the cycle of life is untrue.
Another point Mindy brought up really sparked my interest. Vegans argue – It takes 15 lbs of grain to grow 1 lb of beef. Therefore, Land is better used to grow grains directly for humans. Wow. I nearly jumped out of my skin. This argumentation is basically advocating for the elimination of animals…as in, don’t breed them. We have no need for them, therefore don’t give them life. *If* I could eat those 15 lbs directly and it met all my nutritional needs, and fertilize my fields with something synthesized, then I could save myself all the work and cost of raising a cow. A cows life is inefficient, it costs us 15 bags of grain. Fortunately for the cows, vitamin B12 is and fertilizer are two tiny minor flies in that ointment. It’s like a factory owner trying to replace his workers with machines – then I could save myself their yearly wages! Fortunately for workers, there are still a few tasks that humans do better than machines (Blogging notwithstanding ;-) Yet this raises questions of purpose – why does my factory exist? To provide for myself and my workers, too. Tools and machines are still good, and some workers can be “freed up” to go pursue another industry or project, okay, but the purpose of my factory is not just for me to maximize my own earnings and rid myself of the burden of their expenses. A farm is similar, it is not only there to produce food for us people, it is a source of life and food and care and protection for the animals, too. And that is good. That is not immoral, even if the animals eventually go to slaughter. Why negate the value of an animal’s life by the fact that it will one day end?
So, those are a few of my thoughts.
Regarding homesteading and grass fed meat and sustainable food sources, I appreciate your perspective. As an individual choice, surely there are people who can switch to these sources or practices. I do wonder if the sustainable methods could feasibly be applied to the entire food production and how that would affect the supply and the cost of feeding everyone else. I look forward to seeing more sustainable food systems and happier, healthier animals.
Thank you for your thoughtful comment :)
Very nice article. I looked on here to see what the argument is on the other side of veganism. Some very good points brought out that I did not think of.
I think eating a little bit of appropriate animal products is healthy, as outlined above. We can all agree that the standard American diet causes many issues. Doing anything to avoid that is a good choice, whether it is vegetarian, vegan, whole food, keto, etc etc. All of our bodies are different and we all need different things.
I love eating plant based food that is unprocessed. It makes eating enjoyable and I feel good from my food. Is it perfect? Probably not. But I feel good and it works for me. It is not good for everyone. I am certainly not against throwing a bit of chicken into my salad, or sprinkling some parmesan cheese in my pasta.
Probably no need to be extreme one way or another.
Your comment is very insightful. However regarding the food chain and animals eating other animals for food, please search for pictures of the teeth of carnivorous animals. You will observe that they mostly have well developed canines for cutting and tearing flesh. Now, search for the pictures of herbivorous animals and you would notice they mostly have molars for chewing and grinding with far less developed canines-not unlike human teeth. Nothing in nature is random. And every plant and animal eventually dies and returns to the earth from which we all came. Also note how most people need a tooth pick after eating a meat dish, our teeth are hardly suited for all the tearing and cutting required to chew meat. Ever seen a lion that needs a tooth pick?
Disclaimer: I am not vegan or vegetarian.
The thing about the food chain is that the way it’s done between other animals is nothing how we are doing it. You said we are nothing like animals which in a way is right, especially when it comes to this idea of a food chain. When other animals hunt they come into play at the time of the hunt, when they need to eat. We come into play before they are even born (artificial insemination). We dictate their entire lives (which their quality of life is often hell, that’s literally the only way to describe it), whereas the wild animals do get a chance to live. Yes if we released the farmed animals right now, many would be unsuitable to live because of the toll selective breeding takes on their bodies. You know the turkey they pardon on thanksgiving in the US? That doesn’t do shit because they’ll die in a few days or weeks anyway because selective breeding has taken useful abilities and made them a hinderance to themself so we can best benefit from that. Yes they wouldn’t be here if we didn’t breed them into existence in the first place, but I think if I were them, I would rather not exist at all then be subjected to what they have to live through. We assume they have great lives before they are killed but often they don’t. 99% of farmed animals in the US are factory farmed. Factory farming is standard practice. Even if they are not, mutilations and selective breeding are common. Why do we assume they enjoy their lives? We assumed slaves were happy when slavery existed. We believed we were doing them a favor because we believed they were incapable of taking care of themselves. We give them food and water and shelter but that doesn’t mean they’re needs are met. Farmed animals are social animals and have their own social structure that they do not have in many farming environments. If I was kidnapped and my kidnapper gave me food and water and shelter is that a favor? No, the only reason they’re giving me food and water and shelter is because they need me alive. Just long enough until they’re done with me. Once dairy cows and egg hens are unuseful to their respective industry, they’re killed. It’s all about efficiency. Profit at the expense of animals. Like when industrialization was happening in the US and it was profit at the expense of workers. Just because we are intelligent doesn’t give us the right to do whatever we want to other animals. That’s a might makes right kinda perspective. Intelligence shouldn’t have anything to do with inflicting pain onto others. Being able to suffer should be what we base inflicting pain onto others off of. Many farmed animals are around the same intelligence level of dogs, and we would never do those things to dogs so it’s not about intelligence. Pigs are even considered smarter than dogs. They pass the mirror test and some were taught how to use a joystick to play a simple video game. If dogs are comparable to a human child of 2 and a half years of age, pigs are comparable to a human child 3-4 years of age. We would never treat human babies this way. We would never treat humans with disabilities this way. Intelligence isn’t a good marker for inflicting pain onto others. I don’t think farmed animals care if they are killed by other animals or us. Just because if we weren’t eating them others would be, doesn’t justify continuing to eat them ourselves. Because we’re just another predator. Plus the idea is is that since supply and demand exist, the number of vegans will rise gradually so then they’ll breed less animals so ideally we wouldn’t have to worry about farmed animals running amok. The part about plants is that even if plants are sentient, the amount of plants that are currently used to feed animals we farm is more than just eating the plants directly. The need is food, not meat, so plants is the better choice here because you do have to pick one, it’s not a situation where you could pick neither. i don’t know exactly but I think many of the farmed animals aren’t even useful for fertilizer as they are indoors (but correct me if I’m wrong). The problem about only improving animal welfare is that we don’t have the means to do so large scale. We already have deforestation issues and climate change issues that are accelerated by animal agriculture and at the least, moving towards a more plant based emphasized diet is probably better than not doing anything. The problem is that grass fed beef which is the most ethically raised is also the most environmentally harmful (of course because if it’s not one thing it’s another). Anyway, we’re already struggling with biodiversity and it just seems to me that the cons outweigh the pros for animal agriculture. Like I can only think of like 6 pros (including the fertilizer thing now, I’ll be sure to research that) and probably literally 55 cons.
Respectfully, one cannot eat a ‘bit of chicken’ or ‘some cheese’ without condoning abuse of animals. As Tom Regan puts it, “Animals see and hear, believe and desire, remember and anticipate, plan and intend”. They enjoy and they suffer. What happens to them clearly matters to them. Please look into this further. The fact that different cultures eat different animals is an arbitrary choice. Animals are animals. If you’re eating meat, you might as well be eating a golden retreiver.
I do not subscribe to either labels of vegan or vegetarian, but I lean towards having plant based foods. What I want to point out is the place where you mention healing diets including animal produce- this is not something I have ever heard (or seen). All the healing diets I am aware of use herbs and a food combination that balances the elements of water,air, fire, earth, to reverse chronic illness, not beef, whether grass or grain fed. The four outer elements also make up our physical body.Regarding soy, we must note that the traditional Asian cuisine mostly (if not only) contains fermented soy. The fermentation process takes care of all the problematic indigestibles. And the Asians are known for their longevity and have ess cases of cancers/estrogen dominance. While I maintain that i am not vegan, nobody has actuality answered this question to my satisfaction: why is it OK to eat the chicken in your yard but not your puppy? They were both raised with love, care and attention?
I’m thinking about this article… and I am curious.
You say that you really really are not okay with the way animals are treated in feed-lot, conventional farming. I assume that most people reading this article do not raise and kill their own animals – I don’t even think they would want to or even be capable of that.
So should the article – to be in alignment with your own values – not be in full support of veganism with the only exception that you raise your own animals? Also, how many people do you think will read the entire article and not just the headlines and main arguments? To me it seems that the average carnist reading this article would only be supported in their beliefs, not challenged to go vegan unless they can afford the most ethical animal products.
I guess I am just confused because the way I read that article doesn’t seem to align with your stated values. And maybe that’s just how I read the article and you can take this as feedback.
I’d be interested in hearing your opinion!
That’s interesting. At the end of the day, because it’s not possible to get all of the nutrients we need without meat (aside from supplementing – and supplementing isn’t perfect) I still stand by the fact that eating meat is necessary for optimal health. However, I also believe that a plant-based diet is ideal (with the addition of some meat as needed). That’s how I eat – mostly vegetables, some meat, and lots of healthy fats.
Also, as an aside: You’re probably right that most people who read this article are not raising their own meat (because they come directly from google search). However, this blog is a homesteading blog and the audience is generally people who raised their own meat or want to.
Lions haven’t discovered tooth picks yet.
I need a toothpick after eating a peach or an apple more than after eating meat.
I stopped reading this article when I found the information about Bolivia, to state something like this you have to travel and know the place, the people and the abundance of fruits, vegetables and quinua of course. I’m from Peru and I grew up eating quinua. Quinua was available in the U.S probably a decade ago or some more thanks to the agreement between Peru and the U.S (Tratado de libre Comercio). This event open the door to new businesses wanting to put their label on a quinua pound; they did it, the brought it, and the raised the price covering the high costs of exporting and putting it on the shelves; this costs exist only in the U.S. So, there are zero reasons to increase the price in the original countries (Peru and Bolivia). It is very narcissistic to say that prices of healthy food are higher in South America because “they are popular” in the U.S, and ignorant. In Peru you can enjoy pounds of delicious fruits and grains for 10 times less money than here. Imported products are different (manufactured in the U.S). When they are brought there, the prices are outrageous; but they are different things.
If soy is really so bad for you, then why do Japanese people have the highest life expectancy in the world? Soy is a huge part of their diet. Soy sauce? Tofu? They put soy in tons of food.
There are a lot of other problems with your very weak ethical arguments but at the end of the day, you just want to eat meat and you will try to find reasons to justify that using adhoc reasoning. Just look a the way you dismiss the studies that disagree with your views as being ‘not perfect’ you ‘guess’ despite not really reading them and then try to find studies against legumes and soy despite not knowing much about it or, probably even science in general.
Good answer.
The second response is based on your personal morality, but it’s not an universal way of thinking, I don’t believe it’s wrong to kill insects even if it’s done for the mere purpose of converting the being into an ornament.
If you are consuming food, it came from a living source; plant or animal. It doesn’t matter whether you consume plant…….or animal. It matters that you Bless The Food, give thanks for its presence, its abundance, the nourishment you receive from it.
Ruminants are not predators; they do not have claws or fangs. They are gentle, a gift to those who consume them. The cow’s 4-compartment stomach digestion breaks down the grasses into perfectly digestible meat for the meat-eater.
My understanding of nutrition has greatly expanded through experiencing a health challenge. Having been vegan/vegetarian for 40 years, I now turn to eating red meat as part of my healing protocol. My ancestors ate meat……I’ve learned that my DNA holds the ability and need to consume small amounts of meat.
The holistic Dr. notes that every vegan/vegetarian patient is compromised; lacking in nutrients and specific protein that cannot be derived from plants.
I understand the vegetarians vehemently debate this…….I know, I used to be one!
Thanks so much for your thoughtful comment!
“As for their eggs, many animals take eggs from birds. If we weren’t taking them then someone else would” same logic as – As for stealing, many people steal. If I am not stealing it someone else will.
Your claim is only based on the assumption that someone else will if not you.
Nope. I’m saying that it’s what nature has designed. If you disagree with eating animal products, that’s totally fine! What’s really great about being a human on this planet is that the choices other people make can help us refine what it is that we want in life. Luckily, we don’t then also have to go tell other people that what they are choosing to do is wrong. Diversity is what makes life interesting and helps us all grow :)
You’re right. Because why are we justifying our own actions based on others? Appealing to nature is hard because it seems so simple yet we often miss something in the bigger picture. We did this with social Darwinism where we justified not helping the poor or controlling “inferior” peoples based on Darwin’s natural selection theory.
Hi Mindy,
Thank you for your post! I would like to share my insights in the arguments that you have brought forward.
Against Veganism: It’s Not (Necessarily) Healthier
> Studies are Not Perfect: Agree, some studies confirm that a vegan or vegetarian diet is healthier, some studies dispute it.
> Vegans Are Already Health Conscious: Also true. Yet I have read studies that adjusted for such factors and still came to the conclusion that a vegan diet is healthier. Then again, refer to the point above.
> Conventional Animal Products Aren’t Healthy: Omega 3 (ALA) is also found in e.g. flaxseed, leafy greens and walnuts. EPA and DHA are harder to find in a vegetarian or vegan diet, true. However, ALA is partially converted to EPA and DHA. Algae (oil) is a great source of EPA and DHA and far more efficient than eating fish, as fish get omega 3 from algae anyway.
> Say No To Soy: Heavily modified soy might be unhealthy. Basically, it depends on the source. In Western-Europe, soy products are often organic and produced in Europe. Even if soy was unhealthy, one can be vegan without soy.
Arguments Against Veganism: It’s Not (Necessarily) More Ethical
> There is a Way to Be an Ethical Meat Consumer: We need more plants and grains to feed livestock than to feed ourselves. Using that argument, meat is killing even more animals. I do agree with the quinoa example and I would avoid such products. Meat however, is far worse. Western countries produce grain in poor countries to feed their livestock, which takes food away from the hungry.
> Who Decides What an Animal Thinks or Feels? Humans, as animals cannot talk. Nonetheless, we can feel their pain and observe their suffering. Based on that, we can make the right decisions.
-Arguments Against Veganism: It’s Not (Necessarily) More Sustainable
>Animals Can Be Part of a Sustainable Farm or Homestead: Okay, yes permanent pastures might be sustainable. And yes, monocultures are bad. However, firstly, there is not enough land to feed the entire world on grass-fed beef. Secondly, a vegan diet does not have to rely on unsustainable sources. Local, organic plant-based food is plenty in many places around the world.
One more point: Yes, organic meat, grass-fed beef, etc. is far better than factory farming and I think it is great that you are avoiding conventional animal products. My point regarding this: there is not enough land to feed everyone on such a diet. What I also do not understand, is that this argument is often brought forward. If everyone buys their meat so consciously, why is the majority of meat still coming from factory farms? The demand should have dropped drastically by now, but alas.